Curse

Riotgear · Jan 22, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

The functionality of VoD has been one of the most-complained-about things and has been the target of numerous modifications to limit its exploitation.

However, a lot of it comes down to a simple reality: VoD advantages are currently based on NPC count in a game that has been notorious for bad NPC AI for its entire existence. Also, VoD's status as an accelerant towards game victory invariably means some things are going to be more effective than others during that time period than before it.

As kind of a tangent to the other thread, I'd like to spin off a separate discussion with one specific focus, from the ground up: How should VoD work?

I'll throw in my own $0.02 (which I've mentioned in other threads) afterwards, for now I'd rather see ideas than criticism though.

pah01 · Jan 22, 2008, 10:12 PM // 22:12

VOD is certainly needed, if Guild lords never walked out it might be possible to turtle for ever.

The first thing that needs doing is to make a gap of 5 minutes between the guild Lord walking out and the rest of the NPC's as before, There needs to still be options for the team at a disadvantage to win the game. There have been notable victory's at this stage between great teams so this tactical possibility needs to be kept in.

After this I think that a 20 Minute VOD is too soon. Vanq has written about this and he shows why it is a good thing to have a greater amount of time to try different strats. Thirty minutes is eneogh. Another thing is that its harder to make "VOD" builds when you have got to survive for 30 mins rather than twenty.

Perhaps what is needed are more footmen and knights rather than archers due to the fact that the NPC AI causes them to move rather than stand still and get splinterfarmed.

I think that the health decrease and damage increase is fine, but perhaps it should be tiered, first at 10% when NPC's walk out and then to 25% when Guild lords walk out.

Joe

Xanthar · Jan 22, 2008, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Aha! Interesting question - One that I, given the game designers role, would avoid completely by abolishing VoD as a concept. Of course, doing this would fundamentally change how the game is played, and put emphasis on whatever winning criteria are put in its place.

What would I use as a deciding factor? Without changing the core of the game, I see two simple alternatives - Number of remaining NPCs or best morale at 20 or 30 minutes. One viable combination would perhaps be to include living NPCs in the morale count (at perhaps 25% of the starting morale for a human player) and then decide winner from best morale. Of course, a lord kill would still equal instant win.

Would this lead to interesting play? Hard to say, but probably it would lead to a more fractured game with more skirmish encounters, specialized NPC defense builds and so on. It would most likely require a skill rebalance to be viable though.

I'd play it

Kaon · Jan 22, 2008, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Vod should just be the same game but with stuff happening there is more chance on mistakes. Tactical play should be rewarded. I think vod about 1.5years ago was perfect.

18minutes vod is ridiculous that's why it's impossible to have superawesome matches anymore (only "mere" good ones). Then again 38minute games doesnt work for ATs. So i think the whole system would need to be reworked. Drop or rework ATs.

Right now vod is not that bad, just way too soon. Then again shorter matches isn't much of a problem. But in the end i'd like it back to 25 or 30.

l Teh Mighty Warrior l · Jan 22, 2008, 10:51 PM // 22:51

25 would be preferable, however, the ATs would have to be reworked so that if all the teams are done playing, it goes on to the next round. Monthlies would be a living hell, they go on long enough already, but it would definitely be more interesting.

Riotgear · Jan 22, 2008, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Personally, I think VoD needs to be shifted towards buffing the actual players instead of being based strictly on NPCs in a game that has been notorious for bad AI from day one. If players are able to directly leverage the advantage, then it will become much easier to punish the other team.

More footmen instead of archers sounds like a good idea as well.

erk · Jan 22, 2008, 11:18 PM // 23:18

The game needs other objectives than turtling at the flag stand in a block web hoping to kill something if the other team makes a mistake. Attacking the enemy base should be encouraged. If the enemy NPC's are dangerous when marching at VoD then that should be enough to make them a target before VoD to improve the odds. Perhaps some other classes of NPC than just Archers and Warriors? The Bodyguard is the only caster chuck in a few armor penetrating lightning Ele's like in AB, they seem to put the fear of God into players! And give them some nasty monster skill the kicks in at VoD eg. Dark Chain Lightning that Kuunavang uses

Riotgear · Jan 23, 2008, 01:39 AM // 01:39

A friendly reminder, if you think somebody is wrong, please detail why they're wrong instead of simply flaming them.

Byron · Jan 23, 2008, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Staggering the release of NPCs was a good start, and the improved Lord AI (though still buggy) is also good.

Thinking about it, nothing is bigger than VoD during a match. It's the one thing that's always taken seriously. "VoD in 20 seconds." "Are you crazy? It's VoD!" etc.

I think a system of tiered shouts, much like the staggered NPC release, would be most beneficial atm. So that at 18 mins Archers run out, damage is increased by 5% and total HP is decreased by 5%. At 20, knights and guard come, damage is increased by 10% and total HP is decreased by 10% At 22, Lord walks, damage is increased by 15% and total HP is decreased by 15%. At 24, damage is increased by 20% and total HP is decreased by 20%. At 26, 25% damage and 25% less health. Etc.

This might help the stagnates of NPC management and overtly defensive builds, since VoD wouldn't hit as hard (which normally gives great advantage to the team with NPC numbers) and killing power becomes more important (where now healing NPCs, spiking enemy damage, and splinter weapon is more important) because of the encroaching shouts. Staggering the VoD effect, imho, would make the game more dramatic and less mathematical. That's a lot of theory crafting, though, tbh.

Melody Cross · Jan 23, 2008, 04:07 AM // 04:07

1Leave VoD player effect the way it is.
2Set time to 20 minutes (or even a little more) before anything walks BUT...
3The lord and bodyguard walk out first. NPCs (all of them) follow at 3 minute intervals.

VoD in its current form seems to be some NPC on parade delaying tactic built up by Anet to make Obs more suspenseful. I'd rather dispense with the theatrics and get to the good part.

The bad AI issue may well disappear as teams frantically try to keep the lords alive against each other. No more last minute base splitting after NPCs walk, split builds still trying to bait stand builds out of position and into a mistake. You've had 20 minutes. If they're not chewed up enough for you to face them by now, they won't be.

You asked an opinion. Thats the first thing to cross my mind about the new VoD. Biggest concern about a change like that is VoDway builds because splits will be seen as weaker. I think they will be, if they rape base hard enough. Hold out for 3 minutes at the stand, give the 8-man one last chance to deal with you head on, and then watch your NPC advantage walk up to the stand and pummel them into oblivion.

VoD was intended to end the game. not drag it out.

GGs

GGs

HolyHawk · Jan 23, 2008, 04:16 AM // 04:16

It's hard to get to an ideal vod formula, but I think some of the ideas mentioned above could lead to a better result. Progressive vod penalty (5-10-15--25), starting at 20 min, and reaching it's peak at 25min, when the lord will move out. I'm not sure if more footmans will make a difference, since you could probably agro them all with your frontine. Making npcs leaving in more waves would make catapult maps slightly pointless, so I'm against it; perhaps programing the AI of the archers to scatter just before they reach the stand, but it's AI afterall, it will never be good. Give npcs grenth's balance! Oh ... no? aww, ok then.

Also, I cannot think of vod without splinter nukage anymore; it's just too easy and too good to have it at your disposal. It shouldn't be too good, at the point to destroy all npc advantadge one team have in so little time. Again, catapult maps have this ability but there are risks involved for that (time right, the hit land properly, your positioning, etc).

erk · Jan 23, 2008, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

VoD in its current form seems to be some NPC on parade delaying tactic built up by Anet to make Obs more suspenseful. I'd rather dispense with the theatrics and get to the good part.

Not true, A.net staggered the NPCs' not so long ago quite deliberately, to prevent a total wipe with a singe shot on the catapult maps.

Ego · Jan 23, 2008, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Or a single Meteor Shower.

<.<

>.>

Yichi · Jan 23, 2008, 07:29 AM // 07:29

How VoD should work:

When Victory or Death commences, the team that has stood by their guildlord and drug on a pointless match for more than 10 minutes should all be /resigned and dishonored for 24 hours.

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 23, 2008, 07:46 AM // 07:46

^ ^_^

Change it back to how it used to be D:

Elrodien · Jan 23, 2008, 09:59 AM // 09:59

I would definitely like to see VoD moved up to 20 mins at the very least. A necro npc with rend enchant would also be nice to throw in there to give protted wars something to think about while they bash away with splinter weapon.

Some changes in npc make up would be nice actually - having some casters thrown in would make things more interesing imo.

Other than that, I can't really improve on what has already been said...

tigros · Jan 23, 2008, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Reading this topic and the many others related to VoD I came to the conclusion that there are a few things that people would like changed and those are mainly (but not limited to):
- time to VoD
- NPCs (number, AI, etc)

Thinking about it for a little while, in my opinion, a possible way to change this would be:

Increase the time interval between VoD start and the Guild Lord coming out of the base to the flag stand. Let's say you shout out VoD at 20mins and 2 archers are coming out. After 2 mins, another pair of archers are coming to the stand and position themselves not in a ball, but spread out at either specific points or according to the team positioning (footmen, bodyguards should be front of battle, archers should stay midline, etc).

After 2 more mins the footmen come out and stard pounding at the other team (focus should be on enemy players, not enemy npcs). After 2 more mins, the bodyguards should come out. In the end, at around 25-30min mark the Guild Lord and the Guild Thief (if still alive) should be marching to the flag stand and attack the opposite team (if they show up as allies in your party team, maybe they should target the team called target?). Actually VoD could be only called when the Guild Lord leaves the base.

I think this idea could solve the time issue related to the length of the game and VoD coming too soon (making it from 18-20mins to closely 30mins), as well as NPC issue of balling up at VoD (cause they can be killed one by one in the 2 mins, or they can become more pressure if their number at the stand increases). This might also help splitting by giving a large enough window of opportunity for splits to work (longer time, less NPCs in the base, more NPC's at the stand, either as support to make up for the splitting team, either as pressure to negate it). Positioning NPC's spread out at the flag stand could also diminish the splinter/ancestor havoc (they could position differently, based on the specifics of each map). Of course, improving the NPC AI wouldn't hurt, but than some things are easier to be done than others.

I am not a GVG expert so take this from a purely hypothetical point of view. Before any personal flames

just notice I used terms like maybe, could, etc... insinuating a possibility, not a probability. If you wanna combat the ideas, feel free to hack'n'slash them.

Tigros

rohara · Jan 23, 2008, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

The game needs other objectives than turtling at the flag stand in a block web hoping to kill something if the other team makes a mistake. Attacking the enemy base should be encouraged. If the enemy NPC's are dangerous when marching at VoD then that should be enough to make them a target before VoD to improve the odds. Perhaps some other classes of NPC than just Archers and Warriors? The Bodyguard is the only caster chuck in a few armor penetrating lightning Ele's like in AB, they seem to put the fear of God into players! And give them some nasty monster skill the kicks in at VoD eg. Dark Chain Lightning that Kuunavang uses

QFT, IMO (except for the dark chain lightning part, no kuunavang plz! XD)

it would be nice to see some NPC variation on different maps, like the sentinels on burning. maybe put a 'gon or dervish or two on the nightfall maps, couple sins or rits on the factions maps, etc. archers aren't even a freakin threat unless they're all together. shake it up a bit! it would make splitting more interesting because you'd have to adapt to the map as well as the NPCs, and it would make VoD more interesting because you'd have to rely on something other than blockweb/splinter to survive/beat it.

FoxBat · Jan 23, 2008, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Flags vanish at VoD, Guild Lords get bodyblocked trying to cast 5-second interrupt fodder Claim Resource on the flagstand, whoever holds the flagstand at 25 wins. And revert EoE's functionality for old time's sake.

More seriously, if you want to compromise between split/ganking mattering while reducing AI importance, I'd go with the elsewhere mentioned idea of the NPCs emminating buffs on the players. For example, 3-5% damage buff to your team for every archer. Then we can do something sensible like space the archers out better, since they don't have to all be in the same position for longbow range, since we don't particularly care about their damage anyway.

If we're going to stick with the current aggro mechanics, just giving the NPCs different effect ranges would be a simple way to help them spread out. For example, a few more knights for melee range, a variety among archers with short, recurve, and longbows, a deadly arts assassin with half-range casts, spear-throwing paragon, etc.

DutchSmurf · Jan 23, 2008, 06:06 PM // 18:06

I think a good start would be removing almost all of the outside archers. They hardly do anything before and during VoD, except as group with their first shot. And with those gone, getting to the npcs that do matter becomes easier. Making splitting more viable and easier to do in the current 18 minutes. To make up for it we can add 2-3 extra knights near the lord. Knights are perfect npcs in my opinion. They do matter if you ignore them, but they don't let you turtle in your base. And at VoD, those knights are capable of making a difference.